• Sarah E. Brown

Up is Not the Only Way with Beverly Kaye


How many of you have moved in other ways than up? Most people have, but very few have shared their story about doing so.


It is through sharing what we’ve gone through that we get to help others have the leverage they need in both life and at work.


Both our ups and downs play roles in the success we’re living at this point.


Dr. Beverly Kaye’s contributions for the past four decades have not only positively influenced clients and industry colleagues but have facilitated respect for the learning and performance industry overall. She is the author or co-author of five books on engagement and development, which include the Wall Street Journal best-seller Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em, now out in its 6th edition. Beverly's books also include Love It, Don’t Leave It as well as Hello Stay Interviews, Goodbye Talent Loss (all co-authored with Sharon Jordan Evans).


In this episode, Dr. Beverly talks about career leverage and how you can achieve that along with your colleagues. She also shares a great acronym – leverr – and mentions what each letter means in accordance to walking your path towards success.


What you will learn from this episode:


  • Discover why up is not the only way in achieving leverage at work;

  • Understand the power of speaking your story; and

  • Find out how you can have career leverage through a name she’s formulated – leverr.



If you're going to lose somebody, let them know how sorry you are to lose them, and for heaven's sake, stay in touch.
- Beverly Kaye


Valuable Free Resource:



Topics Covered:


02:07 – Challenge is women haven’t realized all the career options they really have, and if they do, they haven’t had an idea of other alternatives they can do to move up.


03:18 – Not thinking outside the barriers they put on themselves; limiting themselves with “I can’t do that” because of “this is my life” thinking: the common mistake business women leaders make when finding their way towards having career leverage.


05:38 – One free and actionable tip you can do to help junior women achieve leverage in their career: If you're a leader and you're sitting down with somebody junior to you, write the word leverr. They can move laterally. They can enrich right where they are. They can still move vertically. They can explore options. The first R is realignment. Maybe you said yes

to a mistake, so how do you go back to what you truly loved? The last R is relocation meaning maybe this is not the right company for you.


09:40 – Q: What's the hardest obstacle you've had to overcome and how did you overcome it? A: Facing your greatest fear like “what if I stutter?” and owning it like “I'm a stutterer.” I have been all of my life a terrible stutterer and I still stutter. Sometimes the stuttering comes back, but it doesn't stay forever.



Key Takeaways:


“You can grow in many ways, and not growing is the way to not move.” – Dr. Beverly Kaye


“For all you senior leaders who are afraid to say, ‘Go forth outside of this company and find your dream’, know that the secret is an elegant exit in order to get a respectful return. If you're going to lose somebody, let them know how sorry you are to lose them, and for heaven's sake, stay in touch.” – Dr. Beverly Kaye


“Ask everybody you talk to for their story of what they had to conquer, because it is within the story that we teach.” – Dr. Beverly Kaye


Ways to Connect with Christi Scarrow



Ways to Connect with Sarah E. Brown



Full Episode Transcript:


Dr. Beverly Kaye 0:01

So if you're going to lose somebody, let them know how sorry you are to lose them, and for heaven's sake, stay in touch.


Sarah E. Brown 0:17

Hello everyone. Welcome to The KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women where we talk about challenges senior female leaders face in being happy and successful at work. I'm your host, Dr. Sarah E. Brown.


My guest today is Dr. Beverly Kaye. Her contributions for the past four decades have not only positively influenced client and industry colleagues but have facilitated a respect for the learning and performance industry overall.


You probably know about her first book Up is Not the Only Way which I learned today grew out of her dissertation, but she's the author or co-author of five books on engagement and development, and that includes the Wall Street Journal bestseller Love ‘Em or Lose ‘Em which is now in its sixth edition.


She has focused on developing people to optimize their capacity and to make it a compelling and strategic organizational priority. This provides managers and employees with practical tools to engage in conversations which have moved from being mere niceties to absolute necessities.


Beverly, thank you so much for being with me today.


Dr. Beverly Kaye 1:47

You are welcome. It really is, and I say that often – I kind of lie, but this is really a pleasure.


Sarah E. Brown 1:57

So tell us, what is the biggest challenge you're helping female leaders face in business today and what might be the symptoms of that challenge?


Dr. Beverly Kaye 2:07

Well, I think I'm helping senior leaders to help the women that report to them realize all the career options that they really do have. The book Up is Not the Only Way really suggests that for everybody, up is just one of the options and there are others. So I think, the challenge for female leaders who know that there's not a lot of room on that ladder, the challenge is how do I suggest other alternatives to moving up? Because you can grow in many ways, and not growing is the way to not move. Period.


Sarah E. Brown 3:07

Well said, and what do you see is the biggest mistake these women leaders make before they engage and learn from you, for example?


Dr. Beverly Kaye 3:18

You know, I think we have a tendency – we, me – to put myself down, to say “Oh, you can't do that. You're only...” And I think we have to get that self message, you know, out of our heads.


You know, when I think about my own career – and yes, I've written many books and I've gotten several lifetime achievement awards. If you would ask the younger Bev, could I ever accomplish that? I probably would have said no, never, not me, because I didn't go to a big name, you know, school to get my bachelor's degree. You know, I studied to be an elementary school teacher like everybody did in my day, and I think I became opportunity minded as I left school and began to carve out a career path.


So maybe, the mistake that so many make is, “This is my life. This is my career.” And we don't think outside of the barriers that we put on ourselves. I think that it is what, you know, many have written about and said to women, but I think more than just saying it, we have – senior leaders, you need to tell women junior to you your story. You need to let them know how you've moved.



You know, when I face an audience of senior people and I talk about, and I say to them, how many of you have moved in other ways than up? Everybody raises their hands. And then I say, how many of you have told that story? And very few raise their hands.


Dr. Beverly Kaye 5:38

So to be specific, in Up is Not the Only Way, I talk about having career leverage. And if you're a leader and you're sitting down with somebody junior to you, write the word leverr – L-E-V-E- and spell it with two R’s at the end, and know that each of those letters mean something to help them leverage – get more leverage in their career.


They can move laterally. They can enrich right where they are – that's the E. They can still move vertically – that's the V. They can explore options. It's what the whole gig economy. The inside gig is all of that – explore. And the first R is realignment. And maybe, you said yes to something that was a mistake. So, how do you go back to what you truly loved? That's realignment. And the last R – because I said there were two R's – is relocation, meaning, maybe this is not the right company for you.


But for all you senior leaders who are afraid to say, “Go forth outside of this company and find your dream”, know that the secret is an elegant exit in order to get a respectful return. So if you're going to lose somebody, let them know how sorry you are to lose them, and for heaven's sake, stay in touch.


Sarah E. Brown 7:29

Oh, what a great message and what a great moniker that is. So would that be the free and actionable tip you can give them today?


Dr. Beverly Kaye 7:38

Yeah, that's the free tip. L-E-V-E-R-R. And you know, what I will do is I will put- it maybe is just that the first couple chapters of Up is Not the Only Way, I'll make it available to anybody on this podcast.


Sarah E. Brown 7:58

That's terrific.That's terrific. I will put the landing page in the show notes on that so that people can, they can have it. And run through L-E-V-E-R-R again. What that stand for?


Dr. Beverly Kaye 8:10

It stands for lateral – how can I move across? It stands for enrichment – how can I grow right where I am? What should I be learning? It stands for vertical – what is the next move and how hard would that be for me? And what's the plus and the minus of moving vertically? Because we only think of pluses and we do not think of minuses, and there are minuses. The second E is exploratory – what short-term gig could I do inside to see if something else is attractive? And the two R's are realignment – I want to go back to being an individual contributor because I don't like being a first line supervisor. I miss my technical work or my everyday work. And the last R is where else might I go? What other company has always attracted me? If I'm stuck in an elevator and there's somebody with a name tag from that company, I'm set to open up a conversation with that person.


Sarah E. Brown 9:31

Very cool. So Bev, what is one question that I should have asked you that will help our leaders take action to address this now?


Dr. Beverly Kaye 9:40

You know, you might have said, “Bev, what's the hardest obstacle you've had to overcome and how did you overcome it?”


Sarah E. Brown 9:55

May I ask that now?


Dr. Beverly Kaye 9:56

Yeah. And I would say as a public speaker and I, you know, grew a company and I do a lot of keynotes, I have been all of my life a terrible stutterer. And I could have let stuttering stop me many many times as I pursued everything I pursued. And I still stutter. And luckily, I don't stutter on a stage of any kind.


Sarah E. Brown 10:35

Interesting.


Dr. Beverly Kaye 10:35

But I stuttered on the phone, face to face, and I had to say “so what?” to myself. And I had to say to someone who I made uncomfortable, you know, I’m a stutterer and sometimes the stuttering comes back, but it doesn't stay forever.

So I think, facing your greatest fear, like “oh my gosh, what if I stutter?” and owning it like, “I'm a stutterer.” Maybe it is a good story, so maybe I'm saying, ask everybody you talk to for their story of what they had to conquer, because it is within the story, I think, that we teach.


Sarah E. Brown 11:32

What a great message. Bev, thanks so much for being with me today.


Dr. Beverly Kaye 11:36

You are very welcome.


Sarah E. Brown 11:38

Thanks for listening to The KTS Success Factor Podcast for Women. If you like what you're hearing, please go to iTunes to subscribe, rate us, and leave a review.

And if you would like more information on how we can help women in your organization to thrive, then go to https://www.sarahebrown.com/. You can sign up for our newsletter, read show notes and learn more about our podcast guests, read my blog, browse through the books, or contact us for a chat.

Goodbye for now.

 

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